Discuss Seal and ribbon
原文:印绶喜其生身,正偏同为美格,故财与印不分偏正,同为一格而论之。印绶之格局亦不一,有印而透官者,正官不独取其生印,而即可以为用,与用煞者不同。故身旺印强,不愁太过,只要官星清纯,如丙寅、戊戌、辛酉、戊子,张参政之命是也。
Seal and ribbon likes to engender Self, Direct or Indirect are both beautiful structures, that is because for Wealth and Seal, Direct and Indirect are not separated (analyzed as different structures). There are many types of Seal structure, there is a Seal structure with protruding Officer, Officer is not only for engendering Seal, it is also Usable (as a Useful God), that is different from using Devil. Thus when Self is prosperous and Seal is strong, it does not matter (if officer) is overly strong, only that Officer has to be clear and pure, like
Wu Xin Wu Bing
Zi You Xu Yin
The chart of Minister Zhang.
原文:然亦有带伤食而贵者,则如朱尚书命,丙戌、戊戌、辛未、壬辰,壬为戊制,不伤官也。又如临淮侯命,乙亥、己卯、丁酉、壬寅,己为乙制,己不碍官也。
There's also (charts) with Hurting Officer and Food God and (they are) noble (charts), like
the chart of minister Zhu
Ren Xin Wu Bing
Chen Wei Xu Xu
Because Ren is restraining Wu so Wu cannot hurt the Officer.
Also the chart of Duke LinHuai
Ren Ding Ji Yi
Yin You Mao Hai
Ji is controlled by Yi thus Ji cannot hinder Officer.
原文:有印而用伤食者,身强印旺,恐其太过,泄身以为秀气。如戊戌、乙卯、丙午、乙亥,李状元命也,若印浅身轻,而用层层伤食,则寒贫之局矣。
There's Seal that uses Hurting Officer or Food, when Self is strong and Seal is prosperous, it could be excessive, exhausting self becomes elegant Qi,
Yi Bing Yi Wu
Hai Wu Mao Xu
Chart of Lee, the person who scored the highest in the imperial examination, when Seal is shallow and Self is light with many outputs, the structure becomes cold and poor.
原文:有用偏官者,偏官本非美物,藉其生印,不得已而用之。故必身重印轻,或身轻印重,有所不足,始为有性。如茅状元命,己巳、癸酉、癸未、庚申,此身轻印重也。马参政命,壬寅、戊申、壬辰、壬寅,此身重印轻也。若身印并重而用七煞,非孤则贫矣。
Also the chart of Duke LinHuai
Ren Ding Ji Yi
Yin You Mao Hai
Ji is controlled by Yi thus Ji cannot hinder Officer.
原文:有印而用伤食者,身强印旺,恐其太过,泄身以为秀气。如戊戌、乙卯、丙午、乙亥,李状元命也,若印浅身轻,而用层层伤食,则寒贫之局矣。
There's Seal that uses Hurting Officer or Food, when Self is strong and Seal is prosperous, it could be excessive, exhausting self becomes elegant Qi,
Yi Bing Yi Wu
Hai Wu Mao Xu
Chart of Lee, the person who scored the highest in the imperial examination, when Seal is shallow and Self is light with many outputs, the structure becomes cold and poor.
原文:有用偏官者,偏官本非美物,藉其生印,不得已而用之。故必身重印轻,或身轻印重,有所不足,始为有性。如茅状元命,己巳、癸酉、癸未、庚申,此身轻印重也。马参政命,壬寅、戊申、壬辰、壬寅,此身重印轻也。若身印并重而用七煞,非孤则贫矣。
There's (structure) that uses Indirect Officer, Indirect Officer is originally not something good, but when there's no other choice, it must be used. Thus, Self must be heavy and Seal light, or Self light and Seal heavy, what is there (should be) inadequate, then it has temperament (meaning the chart can behave in a good way).
Like the chart of Mr Mao, who scored first in the imperial exam,
Geng Gui Gui Ji
Shen Wei You Si
This is light Self with heavy Seal.
Or the chart of Minister Ma
Ren Ren Wu Ren
Yin Chen Shen Yin
This is heavy Self with light Seal.
If Self and Seal are both strong, and uses 7K, the person would either be alone / solitary or poor.
原文:有用煞而兼带伤食者,则用煞而有制,生身而有泄,不论身旺印重,皆为贵格。
There's a chart that uses Devil and carries the outputs, that is using Devil and it is restrained, engenders Self and there's exhaustion, it does not matter is Self is prosperous and Seal is heavy, all are regarded as noble structure.
原文:有印多而用财者,印重身强,透财以抑太过,权而用之,只要根深,无防财破。如辛酉、丙申、壬申、辛亥,汪侍郎命是也。若印轻财重,又无劫财以救,则为贪财破印,贫贱之局也。
There are charts with many Seals that use Wealth, that Seal is heavy and Self is strong, protruding Wealth would suppress the overly strong Seal, rightly used, when the root is deep, it does not matter if it is broken by Wealth.
Like
Xin Ren Bing Xin
Hai Shen Shen You,
Chart of Minister Wang. If Seal is light and Wealth is heavy without being rescued by Rob Wealth, it is regarded as 'greedy of Wealth and broken Seal', a lowly and poor structure.
原文:即或印重财轻而兼露伤食,财与食相生,轻而不轻,即可就富,亦不贵矣。然亦有带食而贵者,何也?如庚寅、乙酉、癸亥、丙辰,此牛监薄命,乙合庚而不生丙,所以为贵,若合财存食,又可类推矣。如己未、甲戌、辛未、癸巳,此合财存食之贵也。
And if Seal is heavy, Wealth is light with protruding outputs, Wealth and Seal mutually engendering, so light is not really light, the person can be rich but not noble. But there are also structures with protruding outputs that can be noble, why?
Like
Bing Gui Yi Geng
Chen Hai You Yin
Chart of minister Niu, Yi and Geng is combined and thus it does not engender Bing, thus is noble, if Wealth is combined and Food is saved, it can be analyzed like this example. Like
Gui Xin Jia Ji
Si Wei Xu Wei
This chart has Wealth combined and Food saved, and is noble.
Trey: I dont know how to translate the titles of the people used by Master Shen, so I'll just write minister or general'
原文:又有印而兼透官煞者,或合煞,或有制,皆为贵格。如辛亥、庚子、甲辰、乙亥,此合煞留官也;壬子、癸卯、丙子、己亥、此官煞有制也。
Also there's Seal with Officer and Devil protruding together, if Devil is combined, if there is restraint, it is a noble structure.
Like
Yi Jia Geng Xin
Hai Chen Zi Hai
This one has Devil combined and Officer saved;
Ji Bing Gui Ren
Hai Zi Mao Zi
This one has restraint
原文:至于化印为劫;弃之以就财官,如赵知府命,丙午、庚寅、丙午、癸已,则变之又变者矣。
And as for 'Transforming Seal to become Rob Wealth'; thus it is abandoned to follow Wealth and Officer, like the chart of Governor Zhao,
Gui Bing Geng Bing
Si Wu Yin Wu
That changes again and again.
原文:更有印透七煞,而劫财以存煞印,亦有贵格,如庚戌、戊子、甲戌、乙亥是也。然此格毕竟难看,宜细详之。
Also there's Seal with protruding 7K, and Rob Wealth to save Devil and Seal, for this type, there are also noble structures, like
Yi Jia Wu Geng
Hai Xu Zi Xu
This type of chart is difficult to read, and thus it is good to analyze in detail (carefully.)
Like the chart of Mr Mao, who scored first in the imperial exam,
Geng Gui Gui Ji
Shen Wei You Si
This is light Self with heavy Seal.
Or the chart of Minister Ma
Ren Ren Wu Ren
Yin Chen Shen Yin
This is heavy Self with light Seal.
If Self and Seal are both strong, and uses 7K, the person would either be alone / solitary or poor.
原文:有用煞而兼带伤食者,则用煞而有制,生身而有泄,不论身旺印重,皆为贵格。
There's a chart that uses Devil and carries the outputs, that is using Devil and it is restrained, engenders Self and there's exhaustion, it does not matter is Self is prosperous and Seal is heavy, all are regarded as noble structure.
原文:有印多而用财者,印重身强,透财以抑太过,权而用之,只要根深,无防财破。如辛酉、丙申、壬申、辛亥,汪侍郎命是也。若印轻财重,又无劫财以救,则为贪财破印,贫贱之局也。
There are charts with many Seals that use Wealth, that Seal is heavy and Self is strong, protruding Wealth would suppress the overly strong Seal, rightly used, when the root is deep, it does not matter if it is broken by Wealth.
Like
Xin Ren Bing Xin
Hai Shen Shen You,
Chart of Minister Wang. If Seal is light and Wealth is heavy without being rescued by Rob Wealth, it is regarded as 'greedy of Wealth and broken Seal', a lowly and poor structure.
原文:即或印重财轻而兼露伤食,财与食相生,轻而不轻,即可就富,亦不贵矣。然亦有带食而贵者,何也?如庚寅、乙酉、癸亥、丙辰,此牛监薄命,乙合庚而不生丙,所以为贵,若合财存食,又可类推矣。如己未、甲戌、辛未、癸巳,此合财存食之贵也。
And if Seal is heavy, Wealth is light with protruding outputs, Wealth and Seal mutually engendering, so light is not really light, the person can be rich but not noble. But there are also structures with protruding outputs that can be noble, why?
Like
Bing Gui Yi Geng
Chen Hai You Yin
Chart of minister Niu, Yi and Geng is combined and thus it does not engender Bing, thus is noble, if Wealth is combined and Food is saved, it can be analyzed like this example. Like
Gui Xin Jia Ji
Si Wei Xu Wei
This chart has Wealth combined and Food saved, and is noble.
Trey: I dont know how to translate the titles of the people used by Master Shen, so I'll just write minister or general'
原文:又有印而兼透官煞者,或合煞,或有制,皆为贵格。如辛亥、庚子、甲辰、乙亥,此合煞留官也;壬子、癸卯、丙子、己亥、此官煞有制也。
Also there's Seal with Officer and Devil protruding together, if Devil is combined, if there is restraint, it is a noble structure.
Like
Yi Jia Geng Xin
Hai Chen Zi Hai
This one has Devil combined and Officer saved;
Ji Bing Gui Ren
Hai Zi Mao Zi
This one has restraint
原文:至于化印为劫;弃之以就财官,如赵知府命,丙午、庚寅、丙午、癸已,则变之又变者矣。
And as for 'Transforming Seal to become Rob Wealth'; thus it is abandoned to follow Wealth and Officer, like the chart of Governor Zhao,
Gui Bing Geng Bing
Si Wu Yin Wu
That changes again and again.
原文:更有印透七煞,而劫财以存煞印,亦有贵格,如庚戌、戊子、甲戌、乙亥是也。然此格毕竟难看,宜细详之。
Also there's Seal with protruding 7K, and Rob Wealth to save Devil and Seal, for this type, there are also noble structures, like
Yi Jia Wu Geng
Hai Xu Zi Xu
This type of chart is difficult to read, and thus it is good to analyze in detail (carefully.)
Hi Trey,
ReplyDeleteI hope you can clarify the following in this chapter.
1. 原文:有印多而用财者,印重身强,透财以抑太过,权而用之,只要根深,无防财破。如辛酉、丙申、壬申、辛亥,汪侍郎命是也。若印轻财重,又无劫财以救,则为贪财破印,贫贱之局也。
There are charts with many Seals that use Wealth, that Seal is heavy and Self is strong, protruding Wealth would suppress the overly strong Seal, rightly used, when the root is deep, it does not matter if it is broken by Wealth.
Like
Xin Ren Bing Xin
Hai Shen Shen You,
Ques - But shouldn't Bing combine with Xin which will remove the Wealth star.
2. 原文:又有印而兼透官煞者,或合煞,或有制,皆为贵格。如辛亥、庚子、甲辰、乙亥,此合煞留官也;壬子、癸卯、丙子、己亥、此官煞有制也。
Also there's Seal with Officer and Devil protruding together, if Devil is combined, if there is restraint, it is a noble structure.
Like
Ji Bing Gui Ren
Hai Zi Mao Zi
This one has restraint
原文:更有印透七煞,而劫财以存煞印,亦有贵格,如庚戌、戊子、甲戌、乙亥是也。然此格毕竟难看,宜细详之。
Also there's Seal with protruding 7K, and Rob Wealth to save Devil and Seal, for this type, there are also noble structures, like
Yi Jia Wu Geng
Hai Xu Zi Xu
Ques - With the Bing person, the restrain is Ji on Gui and with the Jia person, the restrain is Yi on Wu. but I have read in previous postings that when 2 conflicting stems are seperated by the DM, there will be mo counter or restraining. Hence under what circumstances would there be restrain or conflict even when the 2 conflicting stars are seperated by the DM ?
3. 原文:至于化印为劫;弃之以就财官,如赵知府命,丙午、庚寅、丙午、癸已,则变之又变者矣。
And as for 'Transforming Seal to become Rob Wealth'; thus it is abandoned to follow Wealth and Officer, like the chart of Governor Zhao,
Gui Bing Geng Bing
Si Wu Yin Wu
Ques - What actually does abandoning RW and follow wealth and officer means ? Since RW will always be in the chart, it will not go away. Is it doing more behaving more wealth and offcier charactersitics ?
Hi Joe,
DeleteIf it weren't for you I wouldn't even notice those conflicting texts. It's nice that you are really scrutinizing the texts. Maybe translating took my focus away from studying.
Case #1
Xin Ren Bing Xin
Hai Shen Shen You
This would take us back to the very basics of ZiPing, called 八字撮要法 that says:
用之为官,不可伤。
The Officer that is used, cannot be injured
用之为财,不可劫。
The Wealth that is used, cannot be robbed
用之为印,不可破。
The Seal that is used, cannot be broken
用之食神,不可破。
The Food god that is used, cannot be broken
用之为禄,不可冲。
The Lu that is used, cannot be clashed.
Then there's an opposite of that poem somewhere in SFTK which I cannot remember that says something like this:
The Officer that is not used can be injured
The Wealth that is not used can be robbed
The Seal that is not used can be broken
The Food that is not used can be stolen
etc etc
In this case, Seal is the UG, it cannot be broken and Wealth is not the UG, so it can be done away with.
Another relevant phrase from SiYanDuBu about Wealth and Seal:
先财后印,反成其福。 先印后财,反成其辱。
If Wealth is the UG and meets Seal, then it is fortunate. If Seal is UG and meets Wealth, it is an insult.
But in this case, Seals are everywhere, (reminder: there cannot be too many of Metal Seals or Wooden Seals, however, there can be excessive (unfortunate) Fire Seal and Water Seal), So having one combined away does nothing to the chart.
Case #2:
That would bring us to a subject called 官杀去留论, I was thinking to translate that one today, but I translated something easier instead. So watch out for that.
A case where we call 顺食 (eating smoothly) would prevent from 2 conflicting deities from countering each other. I'll leave that also for another topic, another translation. Sorry too much to post.. Lol
Case#3
Yes, Rob Wealth cannot be used by the DM, it has nothing to do. When we get a Rob Wealth structure, we always look for other gods to do the work, Officers, Wealths, Seals or Outputs.
Officer would be the first choice if it is present in the chart, if it doesn't then it would be Wealth, followed by Seal and Output.
More information about this will be available in English after I translate the chapter 建禄月劫 in ZPZQ.
:-D
Regards
Hi Trey,
DeleteI am happy to hear that the questions are of some use to you. I have read quite a few English bazi books by various authors but I found the classics in your blog is providing me with the most answers. Classics principals give me more accurate forecast of charts but it is not easy as what looks like small subtleties can change the outlook completely! Hence I find it necessary to read them carefully and even over and over again and I appreciate that you are willing to spend time replying to my queries. Thank you.
I look forward to see your translations that will help to answer my queries on Case 2 and 3 but can you also advise on where in your blog I can find the information about metal and wood resource should not be excessive while it is ok if it is fire and water?
Hi Joe,
Deletei'm happy that you find the content of this blog useful. Sometimes I wonder if this blog is truly confusing because the classical principles are usually not in agreement with modern books.
I believe many new readers would find the content of this blog strange and nonsensical, or maybe too technical.
You are welcome to ask questions anytime, questions and discussions add liveliness to this otherwise gloomy blog.
The information about Metal and Wood Seal is here :
若水得金生而逢秋,乃水清金白,秀丽堪夸,一水三金,号曰体全之象。
If water gets engendered by Metal and meets Autumn, then Water is clear and Metal is white, elegance and beauty worthy of high praises, one Water and three Metal, this is called the image of 'complete form'
火得木生而值春,为木秀火明,发焰红绿,见金则伤其木,灭火之焰。
Fire gets engendered by wood and is born in Spring, wood is elegant and fire is bright, glowing in red and green, seeing Metal would injure the wood, and extinguish the glow of the fire.
是金木二印,多者俱作吉论。
For metal and wood Seal, when there are many, they should be analyzed as auspicious.
若火印多者火燥土烈,水印多者水泛木浮,土印多者土重金埋,皆不为吉。
If Fire Seal is Abundant, Earth is cracked, if Water Seal is rampant, Wood floats, if Earth Seal is heavy, Metal is buried, all these are not auspicious.
http://treybazi.blogspot.com/2013/10/bazi-smth-discuss-seal-and-ribbon-part-4.html
Hi Trey,
ReplyDeletedo you think abundance metal seal is auspicious ? I think DTS indicates that Gui water cannot handle excessive metal and there is also an example under “ BaZi: 用神 Useful God, 成败 Success Failure (cont)
“Seal that uses 7K, is a successful structure, but Gui born in the month of Shen, Autumn metal is heavy and many, the plan is to carry Wealth to damage the over(ly strong Seal), but meeting Devil and Devil with Seal dreads Wealth, because of the success, it becomes a failure, cases like these are numerous.
So I think it is only Ren that can handle lots of metal seal. What is your opinion?
Hi Joe,
DeleteThat is a difficult question.
IMO, yes I think abundant metal Seal is auspicious and abundant wood Seal too. Reason being Metal is 少阴 Young Yin, Water is 太阴 Great Yin. Likewise wood is 少阳 Young Yang and Fire is 太阳 Great Yang.
Metal engendering Water is soft engendering, the young turning into the great is a natural process in my opinion.
Also, Metal and Water are often considered being in the same gang, as DTS would say they make an image. Metal-Water image.
Likewise, Wood and Fire have their own image.
and DTS says:
两气合而成象,象不可破也。
Two Qi combine and they become an image, the image cannot be broken.
I have always thought this sentence refers to this image, image of 金白水清 'Metal is white and Water is clear'. Or the image of 木火通明 'Wood and Fire brightly lit'.
Those are the 2 famous engendering images that are often cited in the classics. I have not came across anything that involves Fire engendering Earth or Earth engendering Metal or Water engendering Wood that seem to be auspicious.
That is my opinion and I could be wrong.
Also, if we read through 穷通宝鉴 Qiong Tong Bao Jian or QTBJ, a famous book that grades chart according to what is present and what not. We could always see Fire born in Spring with protruding wood is usually auspicious, the same as Water born in Autumn, would favor Metal to protrude.
Regarding what DTS says about Gui water
不愁火土, 不论庚辛
Does not worry about Fire and Earth, does not matter Geng or Xin.
Is kind of hard to interpret. At this point of my learning I usually disregard the commentary by Master Ren, as I find it non-classical.
As for ZPZQ, it's rather modern than most of the classical texts. So it's understandable why the writer wrote that.
The original source of that theory is possibly from 繼善篇, JiShanPian, which is said to be written by Mr Xu ZiPing himself. It this were true, IMO it should be regarded as the most authoritative texts of all.
一木重逢火位、名為氣散之文。
One Wood repeatedly meets Fire places, it's named the Scholar of Dispersing Qi.
獨水三犯庚辛、號曰體全之象。
The Solitary Water three times infracts Geng and Xin, it's called the Image of Complete Form.
Regards
Hi Trey,
DeleteThanks for the reply. I will keep a look out for charts with heavy metal seal to hopefully verfiy the above discussion, Will keep you posted. Thks.
Hi Trey,
DeleteCould not find a chart that is similar to the discussion above but I found one relating to Food and Owl from the baziclaculator.com you recommend and which is interesting.
Bing Wu Bing Bing
Chen yin shen xu
LP
2028 2018 2008 1998 1988 1978 1968 1958 1948
Yi Jia Gui Ren xin geng ji wu ding
Si chen mao yin chou zi hai xu you
This is a Food structure but with Owl affecting the chart, inauspicious. But as this chart belongs to Barry Gibb of Bee Gees, a very successful singer and song writer for many years, it must be the luck pillars that turned his chart auspicious.
He started to make a name for himself somewhere in the Wu Xu period and became more successful in the Ji hai pillar. The wu and Ji during these 2 period probably reduced the direct impact of Owl on Food god. In the Geng Zi period, when water combo helped to control Owl to free Food, he became a mega star. The next 3 pillars starting with Xin combining the bing owl and ren and Gui in the following 2 pillars controlling Bing Owl, he has continued to be quite successful although no where near the level of geng zi period.
Hi Joe,
DeleteNice analysis! Also, don't forget that water is already contained in Shen, so Owl has already been countered in the natal chart.
http://treybazi.blogspot.com/2013/11/bazi-smth-discuss-indirect-seal-pouring.html
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletehello trey, can you help me distinguish, if i have the seal or ribbon structure in my chart :)
ReplyDeletewu wu geng wu
wu zi shen yin